Curse

Ensign · Mar 06, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Running Energy Burn over Energy Surge to try and prove a point is just daft.

Running Diversion *and* Shatter Hex without active energy management makes baby Jesus cry.

Peace,
-CxE

Warskull · Mar 08, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

The answer is no.

Sometimes the skills you want are more effective than any elite you might want to bring, but this is fairly rare.

In some rare cases you don't want an elite. However in most cases an elite either enhances your build or helps your team. The only case where you wouldn't want an elite is if you absolutely need every single skill slot that is filled with a non-elite skill. These sometimes emerge, but are rare.

Ragnorak · Mar 12, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Back when I used to play Ranger Spike I was very stubborn, to prove I didn't need an elite I dropped Punishing and finished with Savage. We did fine and ended up getting 50+ fame per run...

JR · Mar 12, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnorak

Back when I used to play Ranger Spike I was very stubborn, to prove I didn't need an elite I dropped Punishing and finished with Savage. We did fine and ended up getting 50+ fame per run...

So you gimped your build and made your spike less effective, just to try and prove a point? Does that not seem fairly retarded to you?

Ragnorak · Mar 12, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

So you gimped your build and made your spike less effective, just to try and prove a point? Does that not seem fairly retarded to you?

Yes, it may seem fairly retarded, but when people call constantly call you a noob for thinking an elite skill isn't compulsory you have the urge to prove them wrong. I'm very big-headed that way.

Anyway, IMO, Ranger Spike was overpowered, so it didn't effect our play.

JR · Mar 12, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnorak

Yes, it may seem fairly retarded, but when people call constantly call you a noob for thinking an elite skill isn't compulsory you have the urge to prove them wrong. I'm very big-headed that way.

Of course it's not compulsory. You could run 8 spell slashers and still win GvG's. However, there is this little thing called "Playing to win". In a GvG when one kill can make all the difference, how would it feel to know that if you had used Punishing instead of Savage your spike would have dropped that monk who got infused at the last second?

Play2Win.

Ragnorak · Mar 12, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Of course it's not compulsory. You could run 8 spell slashers and still win GvG's. However, there is this little thing called "Playing to win". In a GvG when one kill can make all the difference, how would it feel to know that if you had used Punishing instead of Savage your spike would have dropped that monk who got infused at the last second?

Play2Win.

Good thing my Guild doesn't play Ranger Spike in GvG then!

Anyway, you've made your point, and yes, it does seem a bit stupid, thank you for putting me straight.

Thom · Mar 12, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

"Play to win" is about optimality not comptitive feasiblity. These are two different goals; you can make a game of figuring out how much you can gimp yourself and still achieve "blank". To achieve optimaity you want an elite 99% of the time. Can you create a competitive build without an elite? Yes, but this isn't much of a challenge so why not just work on optimaity.

I can't think of a build that isn't better with a single elite, mostly because several elites are cheap and game changing without support of other skills. That is to say, you can almost always increase the flexibity of your build substituting one skill.

Yanman.be · Mar 13, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

No. You're completely wrong. Energy Surge is inherently better than Energy Burn. The only reason that you even bring Energy Burn is when you already have an elite skill on your bar and thus can't bring Energy Surge (or you already have Energy Surge on your bar and would like to have both).

If you're going to come up with a build that defies normal convention by having no elite, make a build that can't be made better or more efficient by bringing an elite. A build that "gets its job done" is crap compared to a build that "gets the job done in the most efficient way possible." Play to win.

On energy management, you still need it. The recharges on those spells may be long, but you still need energy management because in the face of an energy denial team, you're going to need all the energy you can get. In short, your build is bad because it's inefficient and has no energy management. It can definitely benefit a lot from having an elite.

Yes, you're right about Esurge being much better than Eburn, it does more damage because it hits multiple targets. Now the OP asked to make a build without an elite. I remembered my Me/Mo support: some mesmer skills to mess with boon prots ( without using e-denial ) and some monk hex removal/fast res/martyr. Just take away the martyr and the monk skills and you would still have an effictive build to kill of monks. The metagame I created the build for was split builds ( especially on the rank 100-200 where my guild was then ) . E-surge would've been nice if it hit mutiple targets..but 1 boon prot isn't worthy of an E-surge..I'd rather echo shame or diversion.

Also my mother taught me how to preserve my energy, by focus switching...the build doesn't require that much fast action, mostly a coordinated kill , I'll have plenty of time to switch to a higher energy set. I NEVER had to swap to a higher energy focus if I wasn't spamming martyr or remove hex ( e.g. against obs flame spikers ).

JR · Mar 13, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

E-surge would've been nice if it hit mutiple targets..but 1 boon prot isn't worthy of an E-surge..I'd rather echo shame or diversion.

OR Glyph of Renwal, which does the same job as Arcane Echo, but better.

Oh and it's elite.

Yanman.be · Mar 13, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

yes JR, GoR would be nice, as well as the elite skill echo that i meant. arcane echo would indeed be so-so ( energy-wise e.g. )

Francis Crawford · Mar 14, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

It's very hard to construct a non-elite build that wouldn't be improved by:

-- an energy management elite if available
-- an echoing elite if available
-- Grenth's Balance if you're a saccing necro
-- Spiteful Spirit, if you're a Curses necro
-- Axe/Hammer/Sword elites, if you use those weapons
-- Charge, if available
-- Martyr, if you're a protecting or even healing monk
-- Mark of Protection, if you're a protection monk
-- Shield of Judgment, if you're a smiting monk
-- Melandru's Resilience, if you're a ranger

Who am I leaving out?

Vindexus · Mar 14, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

It's very hard to construct a non-elite build that wouldn't be improved by:

-- an energy management elite if available

Yes.

Quote:

-- an echoing elite if available

The skill Echo is rarely useable outside of gimmick builds.

Quote:

-- Grenth's Balance if you're a saccing necro

No. This is a bad skill.

Quote:

-- Spiteful Spirit, if you're a Curses necro

If you aren't using OoB then go for it.

Quote:

-- Axe/Hammer/Sword elites, if you use those weapons

Yep.

Quote:

-- Charge, if available

Hell yeah.

Quote:

-- Martyr, if you're a protecting or even healing monk

Martyr on a monk is generally a bad idea, especially with the Mend Ailment nerf.

Quote:

-- Mark of Protection, if you're a protection monk

Bad skill.

Quote:

-- Shield of Judgment, if you're a smiting monk

This skill is fairly useless outside of PvE. Maybe HA, but nobody cares about HA.

Quote:

-- Melandru's Resilience, if you're a ranger

I'm going to assume Melandru's Resilience is a typo and you really meant Crippling Shot, Spike Trap or Melandru's Arrows.

Str0b0 · Mar 14, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I would say that that is the wrong way to look at the issue. It's not so much that you need an elite skill persay as it is the elite skills just happen to be that useful. Builds are built around skills not the other way around.

EDIT: To clarify a little. I have a build that works with pin down, apply poison, epidemic, kindle arrows and double shot with ungent and res signet.It's a PvE build but the fact remains it is effective and does not use a single elite class skill. If you can find an effective skill combination that works consistently and does the job it is intended to do then you have a functioning build. It doesn't matter if it includes Elite skills or not so long as it works.

Vindexus · Mar 14, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

EDIT: To clarify a little. I have a build that works with pin down, apply poison, epidemic, kindle arrows and double shot with ungent and res signet.It's a PvE build but the fact remains it is effective and does not use a single elite class skill. If you can find an effective skill combination that works consistently and does the job it is intended to do then you have a functioning build. It doesn't matter if it includes Elite skills or not so long as it works.

No. Crippling Shot is better than Pin Down. You are running a subpar build.

Ristaron · Mar 14, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

A team of my guild mates and I did ranger spike last night in GvG, we won 4 in a row before too many of us had to leave for the team to continue. Our skillbar included Dual Shot, Punishing Shot {E}, and another bow attack. Between us four rangers, whatever order was up, and our vampiric bows, we rarely needed anything after Dual shot to complete a fatal spike on our target.
Moral of the story: depends on the build, in some cases elites aren't required, in others they just may be.

Oh, and the guilds we faced were all ranked below 700. Not that rank really matters a whole lot right now with the ladder being reset. We were 367th when we were done for the night.

Egg Shen · Mar 14, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

To me it doesn't seem that mysterious.

Part 1: If you're running a skill that has a comparable elite that is objectively better, then yes, your build NEEDS that elite.

By objectively better, I mean something that is better regardless of perspective or situations or metagame. In other words, it does more damage per the same energy and recharge (as an example). Nobody could ever argue that Energy Surge isn't objectively better than Energy Burn.

Part 2: Can your individual build still function effectively while making room for an elite that helps the WHOLE TEAM. A sword warrior using 'Charge' is an example of this. Sword warriors don't necessarily need an elite (hundred blades) to do nice damage, so there is freedom to think about something that benefits not just you, but your whole squad. Very handy.

If your build absolutely requires every skill on your bar and there is no elite that is objectively better than something you're running, then you've found a build that can't be improved by an elite. Great

Byron · Mar 14, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50

I can't think of a non-elite build that isn't first a weakened build, no matter how hard i try.

Egg Shen · Mar 14, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Off the top of my head, I'm not sure I can either. But I'm fairly new to pvp and team concepts as a whole.

I'm just trying to use logic to determine if it's possible. If you can refute the logic, do so. However, just because you can't think of one now doesn't mean it isn't in the realm of possibility.

tafy69 · Mar 14, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Here is a build that is good and without an elite, The only reason to run the hammer elite is if you dont want to lose all adrenaline or you want the backbreaker or earthshaker or the weakness from devastating.

GvG Hammer Warrior

Frenzy
Sprint (Charge available but wont cancel frenzy)
Hammer Bash (Elite Version Available)
Crushing Blow
Irrestable Blow
Bulls Strike
Endure Pain (Elite Version Available)
Rez

Personally I run Backbreaker but sometimes I try a different warrior elite and see how it goes. Havent tried the elite version of endure pain yet tho.